Curse

Whiskeyjack · Oct 31, 2007, 03:00 PM // 15:00

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I'm not saying their won't be discrimination, the GW community has proven time and again that it will find anything to use as a reason to discriminate against other people. At the same time, people will always be able to get in a group if they look long enough or in the right places (friend list, guild/alliance). I don't think Ursan would make it any harder than LB/Rank/or Friend titles.

What you say is true, class/build discrimination has alway's been prevalent in GW and in thats unlikley to change. However is that a reason we should reinforce discrimination because as I see it that is what Ursan will inevitably lead to. Think about it, warriors+paragons have the highest base armour and can easily maintain Bear form, so why would pug's take anything else?

Not everyone has a guild or large friends list and these people are largley at the mercy of what over PUG FoTM is, let's encourage Anet to make a better balanced game where no one group(or single skill in this case) shine's over the others.

Don't get me wrong, this has nothing at all to do with epeen fencing or trying to protect my "elite" status. On the contrary nothing would please me more if the skill level of the average player reached the level where they could complete "elite" area's using builds that require skillfull play. The reality is that may never happen, but it is not a reason not to aim for that ideal.

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So what's your worst case scenario here? Ursanway takes over and that's all people want to play?

Your an intelligent person, I think you know why that would be bad thing-it would kill the game and people would leave in drove's. Ask yourself this, would making Ursan Strike an attack skill really be a bad thing?

trobinson97 · Oct 31, 2007, 03:33 PM // 15:33

[QUOTE=Whiskeyjack]Think about it, warriors+paragons have the highest base armour and can easily maintain Bear form, so why would pug's take anything else?[quote]

I don't know, but that's really up to that pug. I know if I don't get in that group, I could find another. I really don't see Ursan becoming so prevalent that everyone everywhere will feel like they have to run it. Yeah there may be a few teams forming in an elite mission or two, but there will still be more traditional set ups as well.

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Not everyone has a guild or large friends list and these people are largley at the mercy of what over PUG FoTM is, let's encourage Anet to make a better balanced game where no one group(or single skill in this case) shine's over the others.

Well, I agree that not everyone may have a guild or large friendlist, but in a game like that, what mentality is that player likely to have? Antisocial perhaps? Maybe he doesn't pug at all and strictly travels with heroes and henchmen. Maybe he's new which then supports that he'll, given time, build up that list or join a guild. In any case, just using myself as an example, I'm sure the player would be fine.

When there was only prophecies my ranger (my only class at the time) was right there with the Mesmer in the most discriminated against professions. I got through it, met other people who didn't have a big friend list, added them to mine and me to theirs. Actively sought a guild so I could get some help should I need it. If a person doesn't have a big friend list or guil, they'll do what it takes to get the job done.

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Don't get me wrong, this has nothing at all to do with epeen fencing or trying to protect my "elite" status. On the contrary nothing would please me more if the skill level of the average player reached the level where they could complete "elite" area's using builds that require skillfull play. The reality is that may never happen, but it is not a reason not to aim for that ideal.

You're right, it will never happen. At this point in the game it's unrealistic to think otherwise. The game is on it's last legs anyway with GW2 on the way. People like being powerful, so why not let em' think they are? There's still pvp for balance and skillful play, so there's that. If a person would rather c-space his way through the game, that's fine with me, bcause he's doing what he wants without affecting my game experience. If it were pvp, I'd most likely be singing a different tune. How someone spends there time killing ai in pve is none of my concern really.

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it would kill the game and people would leave in drove's. Ask yourself this, would making Ursan Strike an attack skill really be a bad thing?

First part: Kill the game for who? It seems to me that if the majority of people using UB, suddenly got bored with it, they'd stop using it. If you're talking about people who can't get rich charging 100k+ for tormenteds I can't say I would mind. I don't know, I'm not really a doom and gloom kind of guy, I just can't see this one skill killing the game.

As for would making Ursan Strike an attack skill, well to be honest, I don't think it would be a bad thing, as long as they fixed Ursan Rage and made it do the AI damage specified.

Whiskeyjack · Oct 31, 2007, 04:06 PM // 16:06

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First part: Kill the game for who? It seems to me that if the majority of people using UB, suddenly got bored with it, they'd stop using it. If you're talking about people who can't get rich charging 100k+ for tormenteds I can't say I would mind. I don't know, I'm not really a doom and gloom kind of guy, I just can't see this one skill killing the game.

Maybe we should agree to disagree on this, i think it destroy's build creativity and reduces skillfull play and i believe its only going to get more prevalent. Incedentally it has nothing to do with high price's i just like to enjoy the game in line with its design.

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If it were pvp, I'd most likely be singing a different tune. How someone spends there time killing ai in pve is none of my concern really.

Of course skill balance is a lot more important in PvP than PvE I dont think anyone would dispute that, it does not follow from that though that PvE should have no balance.

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As for would making Ursan Strike an attack skill, well to be honest, I don't think it would be a bad thing, as long as they fixed Ursan Rage and made it do the AI damage specified

Thats all i am asking for, to be honest i couldn't give a damn about the damage the skill does as long as it is subject to normal counters, the fact that it is not is what breaks the skill imo.

DivineEnvoy · Oct 31, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Whiskeyjack:
To be honest, there aren't any creativity in making of builds. Most people would just use a build posted online or one that is told by their pug leader. I guess "balance" for PVE do happen once a while, but someone in the shadow will always step out and make new efficient builds, then the rest of the community will just copy and use it. In a sense, there are always the overpowered "Ursan Blessing" and there are always lack of skillful play and creativity.

Also, to your above mentioned post, which I'm too lazy to quote, the situation isn't as cold stoned as you described. I really doubt a party leader who has spent 30 minutes in searching for someone who is doing the same quest will boot a team member he finally finds just because he isn't one of the ten people who have the max rank in Norn title. Consequently, the party leader is likely to accept a less appreciated class such as ritualist or mesmer who is able to provide Ursan Blessing.

Also, warriors and paragons are not the best classes to use Ursan Blessing. I play a mesmer who uses a zealous spear and a shield, and I do just fine. The larger amount of energy mesmers have allow me to maintain for a longer period, along with shield to provide additional armor. It's not a bad combo.

It seems to me that you made quite a lot of assumptions.

Whiskeyjack · Oct 31, 2007, 06:04 PM // 18:04

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To be honest, there aren't any creativity in making of builds. Most people would just use a build posted online or one that is told by their pug leader. I guess "balance" for PVE do happen once a while, but someone in the shadow will always step out and make new efficient builds, then the rest of the community will just copy and use it. In a sense, there are always the overpowered "Ursan Blessing" and there are always lack of skillful play and creativity.

The difference between Ursan and these builds is that most of these builds require some skill to play, ursan does not. You can see this in the number of people who are suddenly able to complete DoA. Also "real" builds tend to run across skills which can counter them, Ursan doesnt really-you could argue E-denial but in practice the few mobs that do use tehse types of skills are so half assed at it that it makes no difference.

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Also, to your above mentioned post, which I'm too lazy to quote, the situation isn't as cold stoned as you described.

Maybe not yet, but i am starting to see a lot more of these groups forming.

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Also, warriors and paragons are not the best classes to use Ursan Blessing. I play a mesmer who uses a zealous spear and a shield, and I do just fine. The larger amount of energy mesmers have allow me to maintain for a longer period, along with shield to provide additional armor. It's not a bad combo

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In what way does a mesmer make a better ursan tank than a warrior, the energy is largley irrelevant because its so easy to maintain full energy with ursan, out of a fight you can just switch to an offhand if you really needed to.
As for assumptions, everything I have said has been based on my observations of what is already happening.

It seems to me you have posted no valid argument as to why Ursan should stay in its current form, why do you think making Ursan strike an attack skill would be a bad thing for example?

Jay Em · Oct 31, 2007, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Does Ursan Roar add damage for minions too?
Seems like it at least, I was vanquishing Varajar Fell and ran into 30 minotaurs + Dervish boss and killed them easily. They seemed to die faster every time I used Ursan Roar near Master's 10 minions.

DivineEnvoy · Oct 31, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Whiskeyjack:
Before I start my arguement, I have to thank you for being the first person who replies to me after three months of post makings.
Now onto more important issue, is Ursan being overpowered really the key concept to the success of DoA completions? Or is it really the confidence people gained for having Ursan, despite its effects? Think about it, if people never had the confidence to try DoA, what is the percentage of completing it? 0%. However, I can guarantee you that the percentage of completing DoA is greater than 0% if they have the confidence to just try.

Now I see that you are saying how Ursan does not require any skills to play. Nevertheless, Ursan is not god mode, and people will still die if they somehow commit a bad aggro. Now I want to ask you, what is the main point of playing Guild Wars? It is really to have fun, which has been mentioned several times in this thread. How does that affect you? Is it really a moral issue, which you have to protest so strongly against?

Secondly, I have never mentioned I play mesmer with Ursan's blessing as a tank. I just use it for fun. Most players I know do not keep an extra staff or focus to maintain the energy that is needed for Ursan, which makes energy a relevant point.

Lastly, things aren't always what they seem. trobinson97 and other fellow players have already pointed out several valid points to why Ursan should stay in its current form. I don't find my arguement to be any point of worth if I just repeat what they have explained in my own words. Therefore, I choose to take a different approach: to break down your arguements and make them invalid.

Racthoh · Oct 31, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

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Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Also, warriors and paragons are not the best classes to use Ursan Blessing. I play a mesmer who uses a zealous spear and a shield, and I do just fine. The larger amount of energy mesmers have allow me to maintain for a longer period, along with shield to provide additional armor. It's not a bad combo.

Warriors are the best because of the health and armour, rangers after that. Let's look at it deeper.

Signet of Stamina: Now because your attributes simply don't matter in bear form you might as well pump strength to 12 with a +1 cap and rune to get 14 strength. Activate Signet of Stamina for a boost of 283 health. None of the Ursan skills are considered attack skills so that bonus of 283 never goes away as long as you use it prior to bear-forming.

Runes: Drop your weapon rune and tactics rune for Vitaes. +30 health from weapon, +30 health from shield, +20 from Vitaes, +50 from superior vigor, -3 damage reduction from superior absorption, +1 strength from minor rune in the hat so it becomes +2.

Insignias: Stonefist in one spot for a 3 second Ursan Rage, rest sentinals for 100 base armor level.

What does it add to? In thoery this puts your typical ursan warrior to 480 + 100...200 (based on ursan rank) + 283 + 150 = 1013...1113 health with 126 to 136 AL. Let's also not forget that you still have 6 other slots on your non-bear form to abuse. This can include Charm and Comfort Animal, Call of Protection and Symbiotic Bond as these two skills have a massive duration allowing them (like Signet of Stamina) to be used prior to Ursaning and maintaining their effects. Why not give my pet a 17 base damage reduction, 3 health regen and redirecting half it's damage to me which would allow my non-ursan monks to drop a Seed of Life or Healing Seed on me to heal all of my fellow nearby bears?

Rangers are just as good as they have 100 AL against elemental damage (boosted to 126 to 136 as they can go /w or /p for a shield), and since Ursan Roar inflicts weakness the additional armour against physical is not as necessary. They can also spec 14 to beastmastery and have a stronger pet. They may not have as high health as the warrior but their pet's extra auto-attacks will give it the most damage, and they can equip a spear to maintain their energy more easily.

Is the extra damage from a pet significant? Maybe, maybe not. But the blessing skills allow you to expand your skillbar beyond 8 skills which is just absurd.

DivineEnvoy · Oct 31, 2007, 07:13 PM // 19:13

It is indeed true that there are many combination of skills and runes to be used as a warrior or ranger for builds with Ursan Blessing. However, that was not my point. I am really saying that there are many ways for a profession such as mesmer to manifest the skill, Ursan Blessing, and party leaders would consider having a mesmer around for the first time in the decade.

natural sugar · Oct 31, 2007, 07:15 PM // 19:15

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Originally Posted by Whiskeyjack

The difference between Ursan and these builds is that most of these builds require some skill to play, ursan does not. You can see this in the number of people who are suddenly able to complete DoA. Also "real" builds tend to run across skills which can counter them, Ursan doesnt really-you could argue E-denial but in practice the few mobs that do use tehse types of skills are so half assed at it that it makes no difference.

Which builds? In case you didn't notice, nearly every PUG for "high-end" areas forms around OF tanks with nukers/monks. I don't see how nuking at a distance involves any more skill than using the Ursan skills. Nerfing UB certainly won't promote build diversity, that would require a huge change in the attitudes of GW players.

Whiskeyjack · Oct 31, 2007, 07:15 PM // 19:15

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Does Ursan Roar add damage for minions too?

It does say "all allies" in the desription rather than "party members" so it may well do, I have not tested it though so i am not sure.

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Now onto more important issue, is Ursan being overpowered really the key concept to the success of DoA completions? Or is it really the confidence people gained for having Ursan, despite its effects? Think about it, if people never had the confidence to try DoA, what is the percentage of completing it? 0%. However, I can guarantee you that the percentage of completing DoA is greater than 0% if they have the confidence to just try

.

For the majority of people I would say that Ursan has been the key component to success in DoA, so yes more or less. There may well have been a few people who could have managed DoA, but i would theorise that number to be very small. You are ignoring the fact that many peopel DID try to beat DoA and only a small number succeded, and those that did where the team's that thought outside the box and used generally "undesired" classes, innovative build construction and no small amount of player skill. Now, absolutley anyone can do the same by abusing a single skill. Now to me that points to something being amiss with how that skill is balanced, you apparently don't think so, why?

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Now I see that you are saying how Ursan does not require any skills to play. Nevertheless, Ursan is not god mode, and people will still die if they somehow commit a bad aggro. Now I want to ask you, what is the main point of playing Guild Wars? It is really to have fun, which has been mentioned several times in this thread. How does that affect you? Is it really a moral issue, which you have to protest so strongly against?

I never suggested it was "god mode" as you put it, if you reread my post's you will find exactly why I have a problem with the skill, but i will give you the short version, every skill has a counter in GW thats fundamental to the design, Ursan has no counter.

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Secondly, I have never mentioned I play mesmer with Ursan's blessing as a tank. I just use it for fun. Most players I know do not keep an extra staff or focus to maintain the energy that is needed for Ursan, which makes energy a relevant point.

I don't use it either, though it doesn't take a genius to work out that using an offhand will allow you to keep the bear up between fights.

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Lastly, things aren't always what they seem. trobinson97 and other fellow players have already pointed out several valid points to why Ursan should stay in its current form.

Hmm, thats a mtter of opinion i guess, though to quote Trobinson97

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As for would making Ursan Strike an attack skill, well to be honest, I don't think it would be a bad thing, as long as they fixed Ursan Rage and made it do the AI damage specified

so even peope who support the skill being in the game are not totally against it being adjusted. Understand this, I am not advocating the destruction of the skill at all, I would like to see it changed so that it is subject to normal melee counter's, if you think it should have a immunity to counters explain why please.

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Therefore, I choose to take a different approach: to break down your arguements and make them invalid.

I must have missed that bit, did you edit it out of your post?

EDIT:@ Natural sugar, you responded while i was typing.

I meant actual builds, not 1 skill gimmicks(i admit i could hae been clearer than that).
Re OF Tanks/nukers- Decent DoA groups do not have that configuration so what exactly is your point?

trobinson97 · Oct 31, 2007, 07:32 PM // 19:32

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Originally Posted by Racthoh

Warriors are the best because of the health and armour, rangers after that. Let's look at it deeper.

Signet of Stamina: Now because your attributes simply don't matter in bear form you might as well pump strength to 12 with a +1 cap and rune to get 14 strength. Activate Signet of Stamina for a boost of 283 health. None of the Ursan skills are considered attack skills so that bonus of 283 never goes away as long as you use it prior to bear-forming.

Runes: Drop your weapon rune and tactics rune for Vitaes. +30 health from weapon, +30 health from shield, +20 from Vitaes, +50 from superior vigor, -3 damage reduction from superior absorption, +1 strength from minor rune in the hat so it becomes +2.

Insignias: Stonefist in one spot for a 3 second Ursan Rage, rest sentinals for 100 base armor level.

What does it add to? In thoery this puts your typical ursan warrior to 480 + 100...200 (based on ursan rank) + 283 + 150 = 1013...1113 health with 126 to 136 AL. Let's also not forget that you still have 6 other slots on your non-bear form to abuse. This can include Charm and Comfort Animal, Call of Protection and Symbiotic Bond as these two skills have a massive duration allowing them (like Signet of Stamina) to be used prior to Ursaning and maintaining their effects. Why not give my pet a 17 base damage reduction, 3 health regen and redirecting half it's damage to me which would allow my non-ursan monks to drop a Seed of Life or Healing Seed on me to heal all of my fellow nearby bears?

Rangers are just as good as they have 100 AL against elemental damage (boosted to 126 to 136 as they can go /w or /p for a shield), and since Ursan Roar inflicts weakness the additional armour against physical is not as necessary. They can also spec 14 to beastmastery and have a stronger pet. They may not have as high health as the warrior but their pet's extra auto-attacks will give it the most damage, and they can equip a spear to maintain their energy more easily.

Is the extra damage from a pet significant? Maybe, maybe not. But the blessing skills allow you to expand your skillbar beyond 8 skills which is just absurd.

I see your point there Racthoh, but then, if you're using Signet of Stamina, how do you maintain the form? You have to actually attack to gain energy, and if you attack SoSt ends, so there goes that. Like you said, Ursan skills don't count as "attacks" so you don't gain energy when you use them. Now, without that skill to hamper things up, the only thing a paragon or warrior has is the plus armor.

Any class can rune up the same way, and class can go Ranger secondary and bring a pet. You say the Blessings extend your skillbar beyond 8 skills which techinically is true, however only 4 are skills really relevant, Strike, Rage, and Roar. Force is a weak movement buff, not even a weak IAS. So there's really three skills a person would be using with regularity.

So you take your class and go Ranger to bring your pet. Let's say you bring Call of Protection and Symbiotic as you suggested. You use those two right before the first battle and go Ursan. Those effects will wear off, and to get them back, you have to stop the team so that you can go back to regular bar, regen, cast the skills again then cast Ursan again. I won't say it wouldn't work, but that might be a little tedious for most pugs who want to get the thing done now. Even then, that's only 3 skills you are using with regularity and 2 semi-regularly.

You'll want a rez of course, should something go wrong, so that takes another skill slot in which the skill won't be used on a regular basis. You're gonna want Comfort, for when your pet dies, that's another load of time used waiting on degen, then regen, using Comfort, then CoP and Symbiotic then Ursan again. So again that's another rez on your bar that you hope you won't have to use often, which leaves room for one more skill. You choose, but you're still using only 5-7 skills with any regularity. All that for a measly +10 or so damage per second (yeah I know the math is wrong) from the pet?

So yes, while it's true that Ursan extends your bar, Anet designed it that way, and when you break it down, you're not really using more than 8 skills.

Hell, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense that it's slightly overpowered. You only get to use the 3 skills, unless you're trying that ranger set up the extra 10 or so damage.

Whiskeyjack · Oct 31, 2007, 07:36 PM // 19:36

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I see your point there Racthoh, but then, if you're using Signet of Stamina, how do you maintain the form? You have to actually attack to gain energy,

You gain energy every time you deal or TAKE damage.

trobinson97 · Oct 31, 2007, 07:46 PM // 19:46

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Originally Posted by Whiskeyjack

You gain energy every time you deal or TAKE damage.

So that requires everyone to be taking damage no? So let's say a bunch of Ursan Warriors are just standing grouped up in AoE trying to get energy, as funny as that image is, I don't think Ursan will make you invinicble. If you've got monks helping you out, they're subject to getting mauled, and once they're dead you're standing around doing nothing while waiting for your energy to regen so you can rez them. The whole tings seems to be more trouble than it's worth if you ask me.

Racthoh · Oct 31, 2007, 07:48 PM // 19:48

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Originally Posted by trobinson97

Like you said, Ursan skills don't count as "attacks" so you don't gain energy when you use them. Now, without that skill to hamper things up, the only thing a paragon or warrior has is the plus armor.

In addition to taking damage, the strike returns energy on both hits.

My pet example is just one of many I'm sure and it's not entirely tedious at all. You can end the blessing well before combat ends when the fight is ensured victory, get the skills going again before the 30 seconds (assuming you're not using QZ or Essence of Celerity either) have passed for the blessing to recharge before the next group.

natural sugar · Oct 31, 2007, 08:16 PM // 20:16

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Originally Posted by Whiskeyjack

EDIT:@ Natural sugar, you responded while i was typing.

I meant actual builds, not 1 skill gimmicks(i admit i could hae been clearer than that).
Re OF Tanks/nukers- Decent DoA groups do not have that configuration so what exactly is your point?

I figured you weren't talking about the standard OF-tank build, but my post was to indicate that nerfing UB will encourage more build diversity. Several of the posts in this thread seemed to indicate that UB will "eliminate" variety and creativity, but nearly all that variety was lost when MOST people gave up on anything but the Trinity.

Of course this isn't meant towards those people that run varied builds, etc (which is quite uncommon nowadays).

trobinson97 · Oct 31, 2007, 08:18 PM // 20:18

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Originally Posted by Racthoh

In addition to taking damage, the strike returns energy on both hits.

My pet example is just one of many I'm sure and it's not entirely tedious at all. You can end the blessing well before combat ends when the fight is ensured victory, get the skills going again before the 30 seconds (assuming you're not using QZ or Essence of Celerity either) have passed for the blessing to recharge before the next group.

Not entirely tedious and Not tedious are two different things though. I didn't say it couldn't be run, just seems like something most people would want to get into. It also kinda negates your argument about UB not requiring skill. Also, even with Symbiotic, SoSt, CoP, you're still not really extending your bar. You have a rez, pet rez, plus Ursan on your regular bar so that's three. Symbiotic, SoSt Cop make six. You hope you won't have to use the rezzes much so there's no buff there. The Ursan speed buff is useless since you want to stay in one spot taking AoE damage. You can only use the pet prot outside of Ursan, and while you're in Ursan you're depending on everyone being able to take constant AoE damage for energy while hoping the monks can stay alive, while hoping the enemies don't kite. It seems very tedious to me and more trouble than it's worth.

Whiskeyjack · Oct 31, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

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I figured you weren't talking about the standard OF-tank build, but my post was to indicate that nerfing UB will encourage more build diversity. Several of the posts in this thread seemed to indicate that UB will "eliminate" variety and creativity, but nearly all that variety was lost when MOST people gave up on anything but the Trinity.

Yeah i understand where you are coming from, but Ursan is not the answer, theres a good chance it will make discrimination worse in the long run if its not fixed.

While there are a lot of close minded people who think Trinity groups are still relevant, there has been some headway made. In particular i have noticed when playing my paragon that I get a lot more invites from groups than i have done in the past, and without being big headed quite a few of those groups i played with were amazed at how useful a paragon can be.

Avatar Exico · Oct 31, 2007, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Know Ursan Blessing has it advantages and Disadvantages and the those disadvantages can really hurt the UB and it can put alot of stress on casters as well. The is skill is so overpowered well ya duh it a Elite/PvE skill what do you think it would. It one of those new elites that take up to caterogys. It has power of Elite and power of PvE skill.

I Will Heal You Ally · Oct 31, 2007, 11:11 PM // 23:11

/notsigned

Ursan is a great skill and as long as it doesn't do any harm it should stay that way. So you've done your FoW and you now ask it to be nerfed. Give everyone else a chance to do it too or why didn't you ask before you completed FoW?